We are going to move into a time 30 minutes of Q&A. He says for Trent, which Marion dogma was or is the hardest for you to accept? Peter - A Leader in Apologetics How many times have you heard the Apostle Peter portrayed as the brash fisherman whose mouth was always several steps ahead of his brain? So the fact is, does the Bible teach that Mary was not assumed into heaven? And notice that Steve kept saying, Yeah, it says all have sinned. Jesus, of course, is the exception. If I could just. And as Jimmy Akin has pointed out, if Mary needed to be sinless in order to give birth to the Messiah, then her mother would have to be sinless and her mother would have to be sinless all the way back to Eve and so it doesnt work. Before the 2001 regular season, Christie was placed on IR from an offseason groin injury having accuracy problems during the preseason being replaced by Jake Arians prior to the start of the season. So this first question is for both of you, well start with Trent and then Steve, this comes from Estaban. So this question is for Trent. This is fantastic. No. Oh, absolutely. Steve's musical talents may have roots in his genes. And I also have a video about seven popes, and possibly eight popes, that did not believe in the immaculate conception of Mary. In Luke 1:28, the angel uses it as a descriptor of Mary within a personal address, similar to how John the Baptist used the lamb of God to speak about Jesus, and that talks about the significance there. So its irrelevant. Good day, Trent. And also Greek scholars do not rule that out. But even St. Louis de Montfort who uses very lofty language of Mary says of her that she is but one Adam in comparison to the infinite and majestic glory that is God. So in the Septuagint, Genesis 19:9, Lots daughters use the same Greek word, I know not man. So were they engaged in a vow of perpetual virginity? In his 15 NFL seasons, Christie converted 336 of 431 (77%) field goals and 468 of 473 (98%) extra points, giving him a total of 1,476 points. First Corinthians 15 talks about heavenly bodies and that Mary is given Well, I think what Steve was saying here is that, okay, well, Mary had an earthy body. If Luke was communicating Jesus was Marys only child, he wouldve used the Greek word [foreign language 00:04:55] translated only begotten, rather than [foreign language 00:04:57] like he did elsewhere in his gospel, such as in Luke 7:12, 8:42 and 9:38.And in John 3:16, where Jesus is the only begotten son of God, meaning the only one. Trent, whenever you begin, Ill click the timer. You mean the son of John? Steve may not believe thats what the text says, but if it does say that, theres no contradiction in it saying that. In fact, when it is used in the Septuagint to talk about people who have different fathers or mothers, it is only ever used to describe people in the case of half siblings, of having different fathers, not different mothers . Since this dogma allows for her to have died before being taken up to heaven, it contradicts the purpose of a biblical assumption. Greg is one of the leading apologists of our day and has had a huge impact on my personal and professional life. Select this result to view Steven Luke Christie's phone number, address, and more. Thats all I got. None of that is required by Greek grammar or what the verses say. Youre talking about giving someone salvation prior to their sins? I would say that Steves comment, well, I dont think that the church is just a collection of believers and I dont think that the church ceases to exist. According to Robert Sungenis, president of Catholic Apologetics International, unlike Jesus Ascension assumptions in the Bible are under the power of God not the individual being assumed. So Steve is saying that the word adelphi, which means sister. like conceived, why would Joseph and their kinsfolk who knew her think that her pregnancy was a result of adultery? In fact, Protestants believe in many doctrines that are not found in scripture like their 66 book cannon of scripture where that public revelation ended in the first century. All right. Thats just being read into the text. I run morning podcasts here on locals. Therefore when Mark 6:3 refers to Jesus brothers and sisters not honoring him, we know this refers to Jesus younger half siblings. Please click that. It would behoove us, then, to follow in their example and praise the gift of Gods word that comes to us in these writings and critically examine arguments such as those presented by Steve Christie that would tempt us to reject a portion of Gods sacred revelation. And weve also addressed that frequently at catholic.com. Geoffrey Stephen "Steve" Christie (born November 13, 1967) is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member Steve Christie - Nangungunang mga yugto ng podcast The sons of Sarah and the sons of Hagar, both from the loins of Abraham, were both blessed and became great peoples the Jews and the Arabs. No, the Bible never says Mary gave birth to anyone else and no one else is called a son or daughter of Mary. Youve got 10 minutes to cross-examine Trent. A19: Interview with Apologetics.com: The Minimal Facts Argument. Second Samuel 6:23 says, Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to or eos the day of her death. Which of course she did not have children after she died. Nice to have you. Thats fine. We ought to do it. And so I think what I have shown is that all of these arguments that Steve has raised to try to show scripture contradicts the Marian Dogmas, it does no such thing. And it all goes down to the authority of Scripture. And in the Reformation, the two doctrines that came out of it was Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. How do we know that theyre brothers? I dont know if I could answer the question definitively. We see this in Zechariah 12:10, where it talks about, They look on him who theyve pierced. Anyone who denies this dogma automatically contradicts scripture because if Jesus is God and Mary is the mother of Jesus. Verse eighteen describes the enemies of the righteous one, saying, If the righteous one is the son of God, God will help him and deliver him from the hand of his foes, which parallels the Jewish authorities taunts during Jesus crucifixion recorded in Matthew 27:43: He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him; for he said, I am the Son of God.. And so when we look to Mary, we always follow the words that she uttered to the servants at the Wedding Feast of Cana, Do whatever he tells you. And Jesus tells us to honor our father and mother, and we should honor his father and mother. Not just on the Marian dogmas, but also regarding salvation. Morgan Stanley, +4 more. So the idea that its fitting that Mary be immaculately conceived, it pushes the dial a little, but its by no means a proof. They also didnt believe the Gospels or other New Testament documents were inspired, so they dont have a great track record when it comes telling us what is and isnt Scripture. 1644440684524367. steve.christie@phmloans.com. Jesus tells the apostles and Matthew 28:20, Observe all that I have commanded you and behold, I am with you always to the close of the age. Even though Jesus will be with the apostles even after the present age comes to an end. This also contradicts the biblical purpose of an assumption. And the same is true for Mary. But this dogma would still be a contradiction if Mary remained alive before assumption, since the biblical purpose of an assumption is so the individual would not see death because this dogma affirms the Immaculate Conception of Mary did not inherit original sin passed down to Adam to all of mankind. After all Ive done for you, and you just sit there, you watch this, you dont click that thumbs up button. I think that what were quibbling a little bit here on the assumption, I think we actually have more things we agree on than less. And she doesnt mention sin in this part of Luke one. And I think one way that makes sense would be if Joseph had been previously married. Edward John Carnell - was a prominent and influential Christian theologian and apologist. So multi-part question here. Okay. I bet maybe you would kneel before it in prayer, you would weep to see that through this means our salvation was procured. Thats just how debates work. Im trying to appeal to Catholic guilt, but its not working. He made all 27 extra-point attempts and 23 of 27 field goal tries in his rookie season. [Greek 00:53:10] in the Old Testament is described as a savior, but not as a savior from sin. So Im not going to comment on that. I do talk about how much evidence that Greek word has for the immaculate conception, and I also note in my book its use in the Book of Sirach. Juan R. Vlez Okay. If you want to go more into that, my book, The Case for Catholicism has a chapter on the immaculate conception. I have also appeared several That she was conceived without original sin? Why is there disagreement between relatives, older stepbrothers, cousins, et cetera? Well, I would say that it contradicts it because if she was indeed sinless, Mary would not have been bodily assumed into heaven for the reasons I stated in my opening statement. Trent mentioned about dying once. A protestant scholar Craig keener says neither the title favored or graced one nor the promise the Lord is with you was traditional in greetings even if the person had been of status. That sums it up. Dear catholic.com visitors: This website from Catholic Answers, with all its many resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. First theres a dogma of Theotokos, Mary being the mother of God. Christie kicked a successful onside kick, which he recovered himself (becoming the first placekicker ever to do so in an NFL playoff game), and also kicked the game-winning 32-yard field goal in overtime. So thats all up there as well. I would love to have Augustine or Aquinas come down to my parish and give a talk or be a pastor there. You can also reach me on Facebook, Twitter and YouTube. They would be sons from another marriage. One, the sole non-falsifiable and fallible authority of the Roman Catholic church, sola ecclesia, which teaches these Marian Dogmas versus a sole infallible authority of scripture sola scriptura, which contradicts them. Dear catholic.com visitors: This Catholic Answers website, with all its free resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. Whenever you begin, I will click your time for-. Steve Christie: According to Robert Sungenis, president of Catholic Apologetics International, unlike Jesus Ascension assumptions in the Bible are under the power of God not the individual being assumed. Other doctors like Ambrose, Augustine, Irenaeus and others in the early church, like Tertullian, Origen, Hillary of Portier, and seven popes believed Mary was either conceived in sin or committed acts of personal sin, including Thomas Aquinas, as late as the 13th century. So lets just stick to scripture. Can I quickly make a [inaudible 01:23:12]. But Mary only had a human nature and a sinful nature. Well, again, this is the exception. So it still fits semantically. On the signing, Christie pointed out that one reason for joining the team was "basically doing Michael (Clemons) a favour" as a former college teammate and that it was tentatively for one game. Then Psalm 69:5 is applied non literally to Jesus and I would say Psalm 69:8 about mothers and brethren is applied non literally as well. For example, Denver seminary professor Joseph Dodson says, Scholars for at least three centuries have found value in comparing the deuterocanonical book of Wisdom and Romans (The Powers of Personification: Rhetorical Purpose in the Book of Wisdom and the Letter to the Romans). And the other concern, again, that I have is from Lumen Gentium, which is a Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, that it is binding to Catholics that even if a Roman pontiff does not speak ex cathedra, it is binding. As far as adelphos, I dont have a problem with the word adelphos, but my question is, why would you abandon its primary meaning for another meaning when it doesnt demand it? So in Mark chapter one, verse 19, it says, James is the son of Zebedee, and it uses the Greek definite article. Pauls letters were occasional, and the scriptural texts that he cited and used were determined largely by the circumstances in which he was writing. Dear catholic.com visitors: This website from Catholic Answers, with all its many resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. Paul himself reaffirms this in Romans 9:11. Steve, whenever you want to begin, Ill click the timer. Well, actually one other point I will bring up is that some people say the Bible teaches that Mary sinned, because it describes her going and offering a purification in accord with the Mosaic law. As I had mentioned, the way a dogma can contradict scripture is if its explicit, implicit, or partial. Should it be included in the Old Testament canon? So for an ancient Greek speaking person, why would adelphe have a narrower semantic range than adelphos when the only difference here is the gender? He put that on his glorified resurrection body after the resurrection. Yeah, sounds good. Some of these questions are for both of you but it might be better if I ask a question, just one of you respond since we have so many. Shameless plug. Yeah. Protestants disagree. Now Steve says, Well, Luke wouldve used, monogenes, only begotten. So was Jesus free from sin and he also died? The word adelphos is used numerous times in both the Old and New Testament to describe people who have had the same parents. Okay. Steve Hays (1959-2020) We just learned that Steve Hays has passed away in a hospice. How would you treat that thing? So to summarize then Steve Well, actually lets see. For example, the Essene Jews, whose writings have been preserved in the Dead Sea Scrolls, recognized the deuterocanonical books as Scripture. So Steves defending the affirmative. Get your complimentary mortgage payment estimate* Apply Now. I had mentioned about the immaculate conception not being declared ex cathedra because this was before Vatican I in 1870 that declared that when a Pope declared something ex cathedra, then its considered infallible. Also, Christie claims, as do many Protestants, that Jesus and the apostles endorsed only the Protestant canon because they never explicitly cite the deuterocanonical books of Scripture. Im not sure. The Greek grammarian Bill Mounce, who writes a whole textbook on Ancient Greek, says that adelphi means, sister, near kinswoman, or female relative. When it comes to [Greek 00:39:49], I already showed that both in the Septuagint and also in contemporary literature, it does not require a reversal of condition, so it can be used here in Matthew 1:25 in this way. The first man Adam is from the earth, earthy. And Steve has said, Well, we know theres an exception because the Bible says that Jesus is the exception. So clearly, then, that means the Bible can make universal statements, but sources of divine revelation can give us those exceptions. The Protoevangelium of James does talk about Mary being very mature for her age, walking at an early age, for example, and being precocious. Hes saying that every ethnic group is guilty of sin, whether youre a Jew or a non Jew. Oct 10 My debate against Dr Robert Sungenis has been RESCHEDULED for Tues Nov 8 at 8pm EST: youtube.com Steve Christie also has his own website. And Id probably want to make Peter the rock of the church. Yeah. This is also the view of St. John Chrysostom as late as the fifth century, venerated as a doctor of the church of Roman Catholicism, who also believed Mary thought Jesus had gone mad. In 2 Kings 2:11, Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven, meaning he did not see death either before being assumed to heaven. Hebrews 11:5 states, By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death. And he was not found because God took him up. So much the same way Jesus was free from original sin and personal sin, yet when he was on the cross, its not like the nails couldnt go through his hands because hes free from sin, so hes immortal. Hofstra University, +1 more. So that would mean if youre the firstborn, that youre going to have other children. All right. But I mean, some of the early ones, Id probably Definitely not Judas Iscariot. And so I would say if youre a Protestant, for Protestants and Catholics, if the Marian dogmas can occupy at least that place. No, it doesnt. And, as it turns out, Christies book fails to produce any such standard. Mary and Joseph are perfectly free to have children. So lets stick with what scripture actually supports. Richard Bauckham, for example, says, The word adelphi, hes an eminent New Testament scholar, need not mean full sister. We receive no funding from the institutional Church and rely entirely on your generosity to sustain this website with trustworthy, accessible content. Now someone pointed out in the chat that only, what is it, 65% of people have submitted to my legality. And this was a dogmatic constitution of the church by Pope Paul VI. Mary being the mother of God, ever virgin, immaculately conceived and bodily assumed into heaven. If she is not righteous, then Jesus did not redeem her and she is still dead in her trespasses and sins. Many of them did not believe in him. This contradicts the last dogma of the Bodily Assumption of Mary to Heaven infallibly defined ex cathedra by Pope Pius the 12th in 1950, which states after the completion of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into the glory of heaven, which strongly implies she died first. After an in-depth study of the writings of the Church Fathers, both Steve and his wife Janet converted to the Catholic Church. All it shows is that even though she was free from sin, she still had human nature, and human nature is corrupted and mortal. Hes referred to the son of Joseph in Johns gospel. It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: http://vernisage.us/stevechristie/ Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the As Roman Catholics, because Mary was not an issue, they did have a problem with her being a perpetual Virgin and I believe Calvin was kind of on the fence about it, so its irrelevant because theyre Catholic. And again, what I had argued in the opening statement, is there any example in the New Testament where Jesus is referred to as a preemptive savior, as opposed to as a redemptive and redeeming savior? Oh, wow. In fact, the Bible often speaks about things like human sinfulness or human mortality as a universal truth and those things really are universal, but it doesnt always mention the exceptions that do occur to these universal rules. He serves as a staff apologist for Catholic Answers, where he specializes in teaching Catholics to graciously and persuasively engage those who disagree with them. Origen and Melito present lists that modern scholars recognize are of Jewish origin and so they lack the deuterocanonicals, but even these lists are missing books such as Esther and Lamentations. Does the Bible teach that no human being has ever been assumed into heaven? For example, we could ask the question were the apostles baptized? But those who knew the family, why he is called the son of Mary is interesting, and a good explanation is that he was born of Mary, and that Mary was Josephs second wife. But you will search in vain for Ammorites, Jebusites or Hittites. So again, weve gone through a lot of scripture here, but none of them stick and show that the Marian Dogmas are contradicted by the Bible in any way. We should only offer that to the father and the holy sacrifice of the mass. Steve Jordahl, Billy Davis. We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. Just want to offer an encouragement for those who are watching in the live chat or who watch this later. That rather, theres nothing in there to preclude people being assumed body and soul into heaven, including Mary. Some people might even accuse you of idolatry. Yet evidence of her sinful nature was her lack of exemption of the temporal penalty of death passed on to her from Adams. Does the Authorial Model have a Fictitious Problem? Thread info Bookmark this thread Trash this thread. What am I to do with this? So does the Bible say Mary gave birth to anyone besides Jesus? And eventually those ended up being dropped throughout the debate. Yeah. When it came to the immaculate conception, Steve did not really put forward any argument to show Mary sinned herself. As far as Jesus brothers and sisters, I probably have studied that more than anything else and that would probably be the hardest for me to accept or maybe Mary being sinless because I mean, Trent, you got a seven year old, its like is as good as a kid as he is based on who his parents are. Christie claims we can know God inspired the Protestant Old Testament canon because God chose Paul, a Pharisee, to be an apostle. Does it say that every single human being without exception has committed a sin? He was a key contributor in the Bills comeback win against the Houston Oilers, in which Buffalo rallied from a 32-point deficit[2] to complete the largest comeback victory in NFL history. What about the deuterocanonical books of Scripture written in the 400 years before Christs birth? The infallible authority of Scripture versus a fallible self-proclaimed authority of the Magisterium, which demands a faithful Catholic to believe these dogmas threatening them with excommunication for denying them, despite all of them contradicting Scripture. Steve Christie also has his own website. If anything, Revelation chapter 12 verses one through six describes Mary being in heaven. Christiaan Kappes. Well, oh, can I have a [inaudible 01:22:11]. So theres nothing in scripture that contradicts that. Solo performances by Steve Christie bring all the sound of a live band to your special event. People are familiar with this one about why Protestant Bibles are smaller. As I said before, these could be adoptive siblings. It doesnt explicitly state that is [inaudible 01:14:05]. As long the difference between Mariological title versus Christological title, thats probably where we would disagree, but go ahead. It is currently the longest field goal ever made in Super Bowl History. Well, of course not. [3] Christie was activated to play on July 7, 2007 against the Hamilton Tiger-Cats. A fully independent, lay-run, 501(c)(3) ministry that receives no funding from the institutional Church, we rely entirely on the generosity of everyday people like you to keep this website going with trustworthy, fresh, and relevant content. So that doesnt take away from what an errancy is about, which is Scriptures specific affirmations related to what it affirms. But the only thing we should offer on an altar is the body and blood of Jesus Christ, the lamb of God that he has given to us at Calvary. Well, there we go and right on time. So does this mean that James was Zebedees only son? H. So whenever you want to begin, I will click the 10 minute button. Calvin did not believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary. Im not sure what your question is. And these brothers still struggle on the same land 3,800 years later. As I said before, thats not what were debating today. Even if the Pharisees had a canon that matched modern Protestantisms, his argument doesnt work, because it relies on a mistaken assumption about the Pharisees authority. So I would actually disagree with Cardinal Newman to be deep into history as deceased to be Protestant. Why would that be the case? I also want to thank Trent for agreeing to our second debate and we hit over 800, I saw in there, which actually our first debate, so praise Jesus for that. I like you Trent. Lets see how much we can get through. 13K views, 25 likes, 6 loves, 7 comments, 12 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from Lake Effect Furniture and Mattress: Have you seen the latest commercial yet? This is a separate event than from what Luke is talking about earlier in Luke chapter two, verse seven. Trent had mentioned about Elijah and Enoch being assumed to heaven. As Trent Horn stated in his debate against Dr. James White, Our theology should come from the Bible, not the Bible from our theology. Thats Sola Scriptura, folks, and I agree with him as did the Apostle Paul and the first century Roman Church. It only states that Jesus was an exception to this because he had a divine nature, not a sinful nature, as well as a human nature. Philosophy program at Talbot. Even if Mary were speaking of salvation from sin, she may be speaking about God, preventing her from sinning and saving her in that way, like we might say how a doctor saved someone from a disease by vaccinating them, rather than by giving them a pill to cure them after the infection. Back to top Alert abuse. So Trent, what are some arguments that you hear Catholics put forth for any of the dogmas we are discussing today, that you wish they would stop putting forth because theyre bad arguments? 18. So we wouldnt be surprised that Septuagintal constructions would be used in the New Testament, including the fact that [foreign language 00:26:54] can imply a reversal as it does in the Greek gold Testament but it wouldnt be surprising to find it in the New Testament. In 1993, Christie set a Bills record by kicking a 59-yard field goal in a regular-season game. Mary doesnt take the place of Christ. Trent, whenever you begin, Ill click the timer. Im a little disturbed about the comment about anything in Scripture being in error, because if we cannot trust that when it says about Jesus being our savior and rising from the dead. No, I dont think you are following my point. Whether youre up to speed or not on the contents of the Deuterocanon, this is an insightf. I think it might be best if I just go back and forth, so like one question for Steve and he answers, then Ill do a question for Trent. Sep 29, 2021. 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